The Castiel Skeptics Society (PLEASE READ FIRST POST)

[DeanJunky]

[quote=Spectre]

Excellent points, DeanJunky! Questions--some a crossover of the observations you make:

1) Why didn't Castiel read what he regarded as inspired "gospels"? If he had, he would have known what Becky did. I think it stands to reason he did read the SN books and did know Crowley had the Colt. By concealing the fact, he could pretend to be helping the boys find a weapon to kill Lucifer, thereby eliciting more of Dean's trust.

I would find it hard to believe that Castiel didn't read the books. I agree, I think he was putting on a show for Dean, making it look like he was trying to help him. I would bet anything that Castiel knew the colt wouldn't kill Lucifer.

2) In a related question, why did Zach have Future Dean lead Present Dean to believe the Colt could kill Lucifer? Were Zach and Castiel sending Sam and Dean on a wild gunchase?

That's what it looks like to me, nothing but a silly gun chase.

3) According to Lucifer, he's only one of five "things" the Colt can't kill. I wouldn't expect Crowley to know that, but Castiel's an angel. Why wouldn't he know? Maybe he did.

Absolutely Spectre ... if Lucifer knew that, why wouldn't Castiel know that as well?

4) Castiel shares viturally no information with the brothers about Zach, his comrades, their plans, etc. For example, the "big prizefight" has been destined from the beginning of time. This information seems to have been common angel knowledge. Yet Castiel didn't reveal it; Gabe did.

Actually it was Zac that revealed it to the brothers. But what I don't understand is, why doesn't Castiel say to the boys exactly how he plans on helping them.

5) It's interesting that Castiel brought his angel-killing sword to the storage unit and had his weapon at the ready; yet, there was no sign of it last night. He knew he was walking into devil town. He also knew there was a chance the boys might fail to kill Lucifer with the Colt. Why wouldn't he have pulled his weapon as soon as he saw the Reapers? Why would he have walked into the building where someone looked out at him? Did he know he was walking into a trap? Was he purposely staying out of the way because he knew the Colt wouldn't kill Lucifer, and he didn't want anyone wondering why he wasn't trying to dispatch the devil with his angel sword?

I was wondering why Castiel didn't kill Lucifer with the angel sword. I would think that it would kill Lucifer.

6) For that matter, why search for the Colt at all. Why didn't Castiel give his sword to Dean to use against Lucifer?

Because we know that's not how the big fight is suppose to go down. Castiel and his brother want the fight to be done like it's suppose to be. If Castiel was really trying to help the brothers ... he would of handed over the sword. Sam sure could of used it.

[Spectre]

Thanks for the responses, DeanJunky. We definitely agree! You know, Crowley made no sense to me. He seemed convinced that Lucifer was a serious threat to him, yet he gave the brothers the one thing that could supposedly kill Lucifer. Also, he did it without hesitation and without asking for anything in return. He's a demon and a nasty one, Lilith's former lover; yet he showed that kind of trust in humans? Something's wrong here.

Maybe Crowley cut a deal with the angels, agreeing to give the brothers the Colt in exchange for protection from Lucifer. Castiel could have learned about Crowley from Sam and Dean. Or , I suppose, he could have learned what he knew from Crowley or from Zach.

More likely, I think, Crowley was acting on Lucifer's orders. Since Lucifer can't go to Sam (except in dreams), he might have wanted Sam to come to him, and he used the Colt to make sure he would.

The thing is, if Crowley is Lucifer's boy and the brothers see Crowley as an ally against Lucifer, the Devil could use Crowley again to find Sam.

[shadowhund]

[quote=DeanJunky]Wow ... a first on Supernatural, guy on guy kiss. The song "Everybody Plays The Fool". I don't think EK could have picked a better song ... while Crowley is watching a video of Hitler, the dude is way creepy. I definitely put Crowley in as one better demons the show has had.

Yes, DeanJunky, Crowley gave me chills AND I am excited to see him again, ...the kiss, Crowley seemed to enjoy the kiss, he pulled this man even closer!

Castiel said he felt something after downing shots ... was he ready for his first human bowel movement ?? His comment "this is our last night on earth" ... shut up buzz kill, everyone already knew that !!

HA,hahahahah, hehehe,*''#^^*+#', his comment how often is "our last night on earth"? So keep closer altogether, be more in the close radius of Sam and Dean Winchester for the upcoming final goal, to reach a point with both and MAKES them the final ultimative vessel.

The drinking scene reminded me strongly on "Lord of the rings"., where Legolas kept a drinking game during their journey before some show down. Maybe it is a red herring or it is just leaned on the scene. I loved this scene in LoTR, I love the character of Legolas. But it`s just like the titanic scene from 4.10, it is only a copy from a great epic drama!

I also loved it when Lucifer said to Castiel - "What a peculiar thing you are" - [translation] "What a wuzzy featherbag you are"
Then when Castiel said "I'll die first" ... then Lucifer said "I bet you will" ... I'm waiting for the day Castiel dies, it is coming.
At this point Lucifer could be right, but I do not hope for the other(Sam will say yes)
Lucifer is really creepy, he moved on after his little speech with Sam, digging holes in the ground, why does he have to make it by his own, hasn`t he the power for making this only with a snip or a thought

It was painful hearing what Lucifer had to say to Sammy ... "I was a son, a brother like you, a younger brother, and I had an older brother that I idolized in fact, and one day, I went to him and I begged him to stand with me, and Michael turned on me, he called me a freak, a monster, then he beat me down, all because I was different, because I had a mind of my own. Tell me something Sam, does all this sound familiar ??" - I knew that was going to be his speech to Sam, just has I knew he was going to give Castiel the fallen bro speech. We've seen so little of Lucifer, I just can't get enough of him ... he's not all wishy washy and sloppy like Castiel.

Yeah, right, I would like to see more Lucifer.
But I noticed in the scene he must hold himself together, maybe it`s just the vessel"thing", on one side he turns away from Sam and Dean in a self confident way and digging the hole, on the other side he seemed not so focused, somehow!
To Lucifer- Sam: It really hurts to hear these lines, they must be buried in Sam`s mind and Lucifer ties them together somehow, "because I had a mind on my own", the "monster" reference (voicemail), the "freak" reference from "after school special", even when they belong together.
He is absolutely reading minds, but he reads only the unresolved things. Now take a look at the unresolved issues from Sam Winchester. His last words to his Dad, "go to hell", where John went literally, the deaths from his mother and his girl friend above him, cruel and horrifying, Deans deal and the horrible death, Sam`s own death (it has to do something to him, after all he is a human being with emotions) to live the life of the Winchesters, that he hated, maybe because he constantly felt the deep dark hole in himself, and he tried even harder to get away, and to get a life on his own. Nothing to say against this. I whole heartedly understand Sam`s decicions he made in his life.If the show would now suggest me that was a failure I would be very very disappointed. It`s a family thing that the kids in growing up have to find their own way. Sometimes they are butting heads, but that is natural. Dean was the protector and the parental for Sam, so he came to the point a way later than Sam.
Only the demonblood sucking was meh for me and of course the choking of Dean was not okey!

I was cracking up when Meg said to Castiel ... "You can't gank demons, can you?? You're cut off from the home office, and you aint got the juice, so what can you do, you impotent sap". - Meg needs to come read this thread !! We'll set her straight about Castiel, he has the juice, he just pretends, lies, manipulates, threatens and acts like a poser.

This could be a inkonsistent plot line to the character Castiel. A bunch of writers in the writers room can make huge mistakes together, when they are not listening what the chief has to say!

It so blatantly obvious that Castiel has all of his powers.
Castiel stands in the ring of fire ... acting all dopey (as usual) ... then he's using his TK power to loosen bolts to knock Meg into the ring of fire, then conveniently turns on his jet pack and blasts out of their before his hot wings got over cooked.



Castiel had to of known the colt wouldn't kill Lucifer. I think it was another phony act that Castiel used to make it look to Dean like he was trustworthy and trying to help him.
Why didn't Sam and Dean realize that ?? - Benson is right, they dumb down around Castiel.

Well, around them all breaks loose and they are not good together like they were once (and that is the dangerous part-the unresolved issues from both), but all the angels want to bring them to the point, where both can`t think straight anymore. The angels want them to think they are just like these two angels, who were clashing their heads thousands of years ago, but Sam and Dean are more then just pawns in a heaven hell game, there IS more to them then just this, at least that is what I hope. I am not excited to see Sam and Dean give in to their so called "destiny".

I want them see kicking butts the angels around the universe!! The angels don`t deserve to walk on earth, seriously!

And it is MORE to Sam and Dean than just rebellious and obedient brother, come on, Kripke!

It spoke volumes when Dean said "well that's great, we've only been in town for 20 minutes, and we've already lost the angel up our sleeve" .... It sure seems like Dean is using Castiel.
But NOOOOO ... they're BFF's !

I am not sure about Dean, well, it would be cool, if he just plays around Castiel, but I think he trusts him, but he is not BFF with him. The writers underline the scenes with Castiel and Dean, like they underlined the scenes with Sam and Ruby. I remember the scene in 4.21, after he was released from the panicroom and met Ruby, they were lying in the bed, that suggested something too, but we will never find out, what exactly was the cause, maybe just simple exhaustion after the detox!
But in the same time they showed that Sam didn`t care about Ruby, but he did care about his brother (in some crucial scenes, but not in the common afterwards scenes in the motel where Sam went out in the night. But even then he looked back to his brother)

[shadowhund]

Originally Posted by Spectre

Thanks for the responses, DeanJunky. We definitely agree! You know, Crowley made no sense to me. He seemed convinced that Lucifer was a serious threat to him, yet he gave the brothers the one thing that could supposedly kill Lucifer. Also, he did it without hesitation and without asking for anything in return. He's a demon and a nasty one, Lilith's former lover; yet he showed that kind of trust in humans? Something's wrong here.

Maybe Crowley cut a deal with the angels, agreeing to give the brothers the Colt in exchange for protection from Lucifer. Castiel could have learned about Crowley from Sam and Dean. Or , I suppose, he could have learned what he knew from Crowley or from Zach.

More likely, I think, Crowley was acting on Lucifer's orders. Since Lucifer can't go to Sam (except in dreams), he might have wanted Sam to come to him, and he used the Colt to make sure he would.

The thing is, if Crowley is Lucifer's boy and the brothers see Crowley as an ally against Lucifer, the Devil could use Crowley again to find Sam.

Crowley is a very chilling villian, I liked to see him! He was so certain about his visitors, he knew, they would come. The poor boys! Now they are lost, they even lost Ellen and Jo, although, they were not so close, but close enough and they were humans. With Ellens and Jos death I buried season 1 and 2! Last man standing is Bobby , I fear for him now!

I think he his on Team Lucifer (Crowley). I loved the little conservation between Crowley and Sam, thank god, the writers gave Sam some lines, with Lucifer too (I think Sam is to silent, want more to hear from him)

About the colt!
If Crowley is with the angels, that would explain, why Chuck wrote it in his text, maybe Zachariah gave him a vision about the colt.. Maybe for all is it already clear, but not for me (english brick wall ).
On the other side it is one opportunity to meet Sam Winchester and plant some seeds in his mind!

Crowley, was he mentioned in former seasons? I don`t remenber his name!I thought he was an afterthought of the writers to get the colt back to the storyline.
Unfortunately, the colt didn`t work. John Winchester, the research about the colt was pretty bad, your poor sons, if only you would know what they have to go through!!!!

[Chloekins]

So after watching Abandon Hope twice now I’m wondering what purpose Cas served in the episode. I’m like all of you wondering about the colt because I remember Cas saying that only an angel can kill an angel. I felt like Cas was simply indulging Sam and Dean’s idea to use the colt because he knew all along it wouldn’t kill Lucifer. But since only an angel can kill another angel, if Cas shot Lucifer with the colt would that kill him?

We found out that both Lucifer and Cas think riding in cars is dumb and very slow. We saw that reapers were all over the town because only Cas could see them. Interesting that only men are reapers. Where was Tessa? Was that information helpful? No. We had the talk between Cas and Lucifer and Cas and Meg which didn’t further our knowledge at all. We already know Lucifer and Meg are evil. Were we supposed to be totally convinced by Cas’ tough talk about protecting Sam? I wasn’t because I think that there is a preset time and place where Sam and Dean are supposed to say “yes” and I think that place is Detroit and so Cas will help them up until that time.

I find it hilarious they picked Detroit. Are there any other Michiganders here? With our crappy economy here in Michigan some parts of Detroit really do look like the apocalypse has occurred.

The only purpose I saw for Cas in the episode was to zap Sam and Dean away from the arrival of Death at the end. I noticed that Lucifer glanced over when he saw the flash of light when they left and he wasn't at all surprised. Maybe he had been expecting Cas to show up? Did he leave Meg guarding Cas purposely for Cas to use to escape?

[shadowhund]

Originally Posted by Chloekins

So after watching Abandon Hope twice now I’m wondering what purpose Cas served in the episode. I’m like all of you wondering about the colt because I remember Cas saying that only an angel can kill an angel. I felt like Cas was simply indulging Sam and Dean’s idea to use the colt because he knew all along it wouldn’t kill Lucifer. But since only an angel can kill another angel, if Cas shot Lucifer with the colt would that kill him?
Hey Chloekins,
That I have questioned too, these simple line, "only an angel can kill an angel is so above all suspicions, but who said it, Uriel? Uriel did not know about Sam-Lucifers vessel, he wanted to eleminate Sam., but he was a minion of Lucifer!

We found out that both Lucifer and Cas think riding in cars is dumb and very slow. We saw that reapers were all over the town because only Cas could see them. Interesting that only men are reapers. Where was Tessa? Was that information helpful? No. We had the talk between Cas and Lucifer and Cas and Meg which didn’t further our knowledge at all. We already know Lucifer and Meg are evil. Were we supposed to be totally convinced by Cas’ tough talk about protecting Sam? I wasn’t because I think that there is a preset time and place where Sam and Dean are supposed to say “yes” and I think that place is Detroit and so Cas will help them up until that time.

You are right, he helps them to stay in line till the showdown in Detroit!!
Grrgh, can I just say again, that I hate the overload on featherbags? Sam and Dean have to pay attention, that they are not breathing in all the feathers around them.

I find it hilarious they picked Detroit. Are there any other Michiganders here? With our crappy economy here in Michigan some parts of Detroit really do look like the apocalypse has occurred.

Maybe Roland Emmerich made his last movie in Detroit ?

The only purpose I saw for Cas in the episode was to zap Sam and Dean away from the arrival of Death at the end. I noticed that Lucifer glanced over when he saw the flash of light when they left and he wasn't at all surprised. Maybe he had been expecting Cas to show up? Did he leave Meg guarding Cas purposely for Cas to use to escape?

But, you know, "huggy bear" did great!
Yeah, Lucifer wasn`t surprised, I noticed that too. He is absolutely not worried about the future. Now that worries me, but the writers are building up the tension for the second half of the season!

[Chloekins]

Another thing just occurred to me. Instead of riding in the backseat with Jo and Ellen, why didn't Cas pop on ahead and scope out the town so that Sam, Dean Jo and Ellen didn't drive into town blind? At least he was riding with Jo and Ellen instead of Sam and Dean. They know what a furor that would have kicked up .

[benson35]

Originally Posted by Chloekins

Another thing just occurred to me. Instead of riding in the backseat with Jo and Ellen, why didn't Cas pop on ahead and scope out the town so that Sam, Dean Jo and Ellen didn't drive into town blind? At least he was riding with Jo and Ellen instead of Sam and Dean. They know what a furor that would have kicked up .

I've been away and I've got loads of reading up to do..you guys have been busy.

But I wanted to say first your right chloekins...it would of definately kicked up a stink...that would of been way to much. We've had to put up with the false awkward 'worry' and the 'friend, buddy' etc...but really an Angel in their back seat when he can fly or whatever...

That was weird even Castiel fans would have to admit..riding in the back seat? There is just 'another' example that Castiel is just cannon fodder for story plots or scenes...I think he was in the back seat so Lucifer could say to him...'you road in a car! and your perculiar..'. I mean MP/Lucifer was truely amazing...great acting...(my favs are with Jared of course)

And Dean didn't say that sentence about 'loosing the Angel in our pocket' just for fun...it meant something more. I think Dean is feeling more and more like he is getting his brother back and he can stop looking for that replacement...

I'm going to read from a few pages back now...I'm excited to read the posts...