[AlexanderR80]

Originally Posted by Ishiken

Lilith, Azazel, The Seven Deadly Sins, Rituale Romanum exorcisms with the rosary beads and the cross, Faust and the Black Mass all trace their roots to Christianity. Zoroastriansm appears only once in Supernatural mythology, and during that instance the Daevas were parrellel to Lilith's hellhounds, which were enslaved demonic creatures of Hell. The Zoroastrianism scriptures are written in Avestan, and the Winchesters spoke Latin. Obviously you can draw many parrellels between Zoroastrianism and Christianity, so it wouldn't be surprising that there are also large similarities between Supernatural and Zoroastrianism.

Nobody claimed that Supernatural ever had God. We speculated that if there was God in the Supernatural universe, then such God would follow traditional Christian theology due to the majority of the Supernatural overarcing mythology being also based on Christian mythology.

Let's start with Casey's revelations. She said that religious demons have their own god Lucifer, just like humans. So, we have at least two gods in SN Universe. At least we know that there are believers among people and among demons. So, SN has beings that believe in their gods. What is really happening in SN Universe - that's not our business. We do not know what is really happening in our own world. So, it is enough for me to know that there are two groups of beings following their own gods to say that there are two gods in SN Universe.

And obviously Lucifer has his own plans according to demonic understanding of his will. And Casey was talking about that, about war, about front and so on.

As you mentioned before there are a lot of things in SN that do correspond with Christianity.

So, what kind of religion has myth about two gods? And we should look for not just random religion, but among religions that are related to Christianity, since we established that there were lots of common things. So, we have Judaism, Islam and Zoroastrism. Zurvanism is ancient sect in Zoroastrism, but let's not go there. I can talk about it for ages. (It's better to use Zoroastrism than Zoroastrianism, because we do not say Christianism or Buddhianism and so on. :-) ) I know that Mormons have a legend about Lucifer to be a brother of Jesus, but it is just an interpretation of old Zoroastrian myth. You can find a lot about it on the Net.

The answer to the question is Zoroastrism and Zurvanism. There are two brothers, two gods. Not just God and angel. And there is Lilith (Az). Sam's immunity towards her powers and demonic virus can be explained through nature of Sam as incarnation of Lucifer. And my friend, nicecat, showed it brilliantly. As for seven deadly sins - you can find them in Zoroastrism. Rituale Romanium is used in most of movies and tv-shows nowadays.

I can continue with this but there is nothing stop you from reading most of it on Sam's abilities thread. I don't think we should copy all this here.

Originally Posted by Ishiken

I don't think that you do either, but it's my perception that you act as if you do. Perhaps I am mistaken and I apologize for my misconception especially over the internet when 70% of communication is lost in translation.

I just explain things the way I see them. I feel sad that my openness in public discussions is perceived to be a way of talking down.

Originally Posted by Ishiken

Well since Supernatural never even hinted quantum chaos theory within it's 3 year run, I would personally find it surprising that somehow they would incorporate it into their story. We are all speculating our own theories about the Supernatural mythology, obviously there are no right or wrong. I don't solve all problems with "that's not real, that's SN", however I am merely stating that based on all the previous Christian subtexts that a God based on Christian theology is more likely than a God based on quantum theories. I doubt that Kripke would introduce God into the debate between free will and destiny, especially since the writers wouldn't even be able to adequately scratch the debate. Sam is already perplexed enough with just Azazel's vision, and now imagine if there was God's will in there too. He would have a giant headache all the day. Hmm perhaps not a bad thing, since he might have more sex to null the pain. Isn't that the direction that Sam's going in the first episode or am I totally off course?

This discussion started from my statement that quantum explanation of predetermination and free will is more accurate than classical one. I still believe it to be true.

I do not think that SN writers are bringing quantum chaos on show. They bring controversial ideas and mix them, but most of the time it's just role playing game. Sam is Lucifer, Sam is Adam, Dean is John the Baptist, Dean is Eve and so on.

Originally Posted by Ishiken

Whoever stated that Adam was Sam and Dean was Eve? I certainly wouldn't want to watch a carbon copy of Genesis.

You mean slash carbon copy of Genesis? :-)

Originally Posted by Ishiken

Are you certain that all religions discriminate against gay people? Just using Christianity as an example, what happens if there are gay Christians? I remember a few years ago when a gay Christian was ordained as a bishop, and he was embraced by his community.

I showed it as example that we shouldn't say that something has it's fault in Christian mythology. And you are actually confirming it. So, we can not talk about some kind of solid version of Christian mythology that is influencing SN. So, it opens doors for Zoroastrism and Zurvanism.

Originally Posted by Ishiken

So what's your definition of free? If anyone hopes for something better then the act makes it selfish, even if such hope for the better does not include themselves in it?

When you include or exclude yourself from something you include yourself. Yes, I said exactly that. You are involved with including/excluding yourself, so you are not free. But when you just do something, when you are in a process and when you do this because it's natural for you to do that - you are free.

Such actions really do good because they are sincere and honest.

Originally Posted by Ishiken

And at very least, we would have more to think about before season 4 comes along with hopefully more shirtless scenes, then we can shift the direction of our discussion temporarily to the young actor's workout regimens and healthy diets.

I have the same build/height as Jared, so the only healthy diet is NO DIET! :-)

Originally Posted by Ishiken

You mean twisting my words? And I don't want to look better in the eyes of our readers, I am just a little less cynical.

When you live in Russia - you get cynical. That's normal.

Originally Posted by Ishiken

It's my own ideals of what God is like and you have your own ideals of what the world is like. God is a concept that's very spiritual to me and not meant to be measured in a beaker in the lab, hence I don't mix God with science. Obviously everything that we do here is speculation and we could all be right or we could all be wrong. The only things certain in life are history, perception, mathematics and science. Everything else is all merely speculations and faith. You can even argue about all of the above, but it would eventually turn into a brain in the vat discussion, which is way too philosophical for me.

I totally delete history from your list. :-)

And with perception... It is really important question. Perception is the most subjective thing in the world. We have the same physiology but people are really different. I've seen what some people can do, I can not even call it supernatural... It seems natural, just we do not know how (physiologically) to do that. But that's totally different subject.